[trash-talk] London trashers ... are you OK?

Sat Jul 9 16:51:42 PDT 2005

This is my last post on this as I'm sure the rest of you don't want  
to see some flame war going on forever between myself and Mono Girl.

Let me say first that the daily death toll in Iraq and Afghanistan is  
horrifying. It is also true to say that in comparison to the 100,000+  
deaths in the middle east or to the 3,500+ dead of September 11, the  
death toll in London is minimal. However that doesn't mean that it  
should be made "light of" as Mono Girl has. People are dead. Bodies  
are not identified - some bodies are being eaten away in the hot 100  
degree tunnels by rats and may never be identified. People have lost  
friends and family - others have been badly shaken and traumatised.  
Yes, it may "only be" 50 dead. It may "only be" 700 injured. London  
was lucky in that respect. However to come out with comments such as  
"How can Bush & Blair sleep at night" and so on, no matter how much  
truth there is to that, so soon after the events I find to be  
tactless. A single person dead is one person too many.

I think most of us on the group fall into the anti-war category. I  
know I do. I found Bush & Blair's "war on terror" on Iraq sickening.  
There were no WMD and invading for the sake of regime change is  
totally against all known UN conventions. There were no links between  
Saddam Hussein and Al Qaeda at that time and Iraq had nothing to do  
with the 9/11 bombings according to intelligence and common sense.  
Instead of bringing democracy to the area with his war, Bush has  
introduced instability, insurgency and a rise in hatred of the west  
in certain fundamentalist areas (I stress fundamentalist as  
99.999999% of Muslims do not see the west as "infidels"). If Al Qaeda  
weren't there before, they certainly are now. Speaking of which, I  
think it's safe to say AQ is a state of mind shared by loosely  
connected terror units rather than a centrally controlled structure.  
Whatever structure there may have been (and I doubt even that was as  
made out as it was back in the days post the WTC attacks) was  
disbanded shortly after the ineffective attacks on Afghanistan where  
the Taliban are again gaining power, opiate production is back in  
full swing and feelings against the west are again on the rise.

Directly connecting the London bombings with the Iraq insurgency is  
also unfair as it seems to connect killing of Muslims in Iraq with  
killings in London. Unfortunately many Muslims died in the London  
bombings as London is a wholly integrated multicultural society, so  
that sort of thinking is facetious. Whatever insurgency has occurred  
in Iraq has been very secular and not just aimed at the West - in  
fact, it has mainly been targeted at Iraqi civilians attempting to  
stabilise the country post-invasion and many of the insurgents are  
coming from outside of the country to deliberately destabilise the area.

Personally I'd like to see our troops come home as soon as possible  
as don't think we should have been there in the first place. Once  
again, as with the London bombings, we've come off lightly - far  
fewer British troops are coming home in body bags compared to the  
USA. Why this is I am not sure, but I am thankful. Unfortunately it  
looks like we'll be there for the next 10 years if Bush gets his way  
- sometimes it feels like Britain is an annexed state of the USA. The  
Bush government has this concept that they can win a war on terror -  
I'm not so sure such a thing is feasible; how do you win a war  
against a concept?

Violence begets violence on both sides (retaliation for bombing  
equals more bombing ad infinitum) whilst curtailing civil liberties  
back home with a controlled police state means the terrorists win.  
The politics of fear on both sides is damaging for us all and I don't  
there's a real solution. You can't sit down and debate with isolated  
fundamentalists who see everyone as "infidels" but then again killing  
them causes martyrdom and another hundred will step up to the cause.

It's complete madness and I don't think we're ever going to see an  
end to this. That's what truly scares me.

So please don't treat me like I have no understanding of the issues.  
In fact, I'd recommend you watch the very informative documentary  
series "The Power of Nightmares: The Rise of the Politics of Fear" by  
Adam Curtis - it'll open your eyes to the full details of what's been  
going on here for the past few decades. It even shows the strange  
rationales used by Bin Laden and his cohorts in justifying killing  
other Muslims and how a previous fundamentalist group started killing  
off each of its own members with similar twisted logic until *no one*  
was left.

Sorry to anyone who thought I was coming across all judgmental but it  
just appeared to me that M.G., whilst making perfectly valid comments  
to which I don't actually disagree that much (George Galloway stated  
similar opinions), just said them a bit *too* early, Let London bury  
its dead before discussing such matters - it's just a question of tact.

So I apologise to M.G. for using the language I did in the mail  
below; I should've considered my posting more thoroughly before  
sending, but maybe M.G. should also consider their use of language  
and tact before making such posts in the future,

With that, I'd like to draw a line on these events and give my  
condolences to the families and friends of anyone who has been  
affected by terrorism in any form at any time.

Regards,
Ian

On 10 Jul 2005, at 00:16, Ian Abbott wrote:

> Don't be such as f-ing idiot. For chrissakes don't you think I know  
> what's going on over there as well. It may come as a surprise to  
> you but people in the UK have a fairly good idea on what's going on  
> in the world and most of us find the entire Iraq situation terrible  
> - we didn't want to go there in the first place you know...
>
> All I wanted was for you to display just a bit of sensitivity *for  
> one day* you total arse.
>
> *whatever* wanker
>
> Ian
>
>
> On 10 Jul 2005, at 00:04, OCourtneyLoveO at aol.com wrote:
>
>> In a message dated 09/07/2005 16:14:03 GMT Standard Time,  
>> iabbott at ruiner.demon.co.uk writes:
>> That may be so but you could have at least kept that to yourself  
>> for now. They still haven't recovered all the dead in the tunnels  
>> and the heat and the rats are making it harder...
>>
>> Have some respect for all of the dead in the UK, and Iraq, and all  
>> across the world and think before you come out with stuff like that.
>>
>> Personally I disagree with the war in Iraq but now is *not* the time.
>>
>>
>> sorry ian
>>
>> ill put ~100,000 dead muslims in iraq + afganistan
>> on the back burner for now
>>
>> tomorrow is another day.......
>>
>> ~whatever~
>>
>>
>> ~Mono Girl~
>>
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